To be honest I am very disturbed by all that is going on. Some in the church I attend are all caught up in it and pushing it on everyone, not realizing how much against the Word of God some of this is.
I believe in angels, but they are not to be worshiped and some of it seems like he is making them an object of worship.
I listen to one of the meetings and then heard from people who were down there and it upsets me. I am all for people being saved and healed, but not when it is made into a circus or an object of pride.
I think the world today is hungry for the Gospel yet does not realize that what they need is the pure Word. People want emotionalism, experience and a false sense of spirituality that all this hype brings.
ded
· 1 year ago
Who wants to appear as negatively catergorizing a move of the Holy Spirit?
That said, I am unimpressed at best by what amounts to hysteria over signs and wonders. I do not know whether such is the case in Lakeland or not. I once observed representatives of the Toronto "blessing" barking like dogs over people "slain in the spirit" and this was stated as an evidence of the Holy Spirit.
I am a huge proponent of people understanding and living by faith based on a sense of the Holy Spirit within. I am very suspect of passion and fervor in the midst of a group experience. The power of suggestion is phenomenally powerful.
It does boil down to knowledge. We have an earthly natural knowledge as humans. Salvation, then regeneration in the Holy Spirit, opens us to spiritual knowledge. What is spiritual knowledge? This question demands an answer or else every unusual manifestation of phenomena will be labeled as of the Holy Spirit. You are wise to raise a warning, Ben.
Reed
· 1 year ago
There have been "Great Awakenings" in American History. Only the first one was of any lasting legacy. It was widespread, this current move has yet to make that move, but it seems to be poised to spread. The major thing was that the First Great Awakening had the likes of Johnathan Edwards, George Whitfield and the Wesley brothers as theological anchors in the midst of it all. Oddly enough they were from various traditions and theological persuasions (Edwards in the Calvinist strain and Wesley in the Arminian) yet they sustained the move of the Spirit by undergirding it with sound theology. Not merely from scripture but also grounding it in the tradition of the Christian church (not merely Protestant). I am waiting to see what takes shape from Lakeland. I was in Toronto - it was a spectacular show. It is rough being a theology geek in an experiential environment. That loving God with my mind thing just will not leave me alone. I experienced several "manifestations" during the Toronto Outpouring. I used them to dive deeper into my personal journey. I take a rather Episcopal view and sort things through scripture, experience, reason and tradition. Letting the concert of all 4 speak to the validity of what is going on in my life. I have found it to be a very helpful holistic mechanism for maintaining a grounded faith in the midst of radical extremes. I am watching and waiting to see what Papa does with the Lakeland move. I for one am hoping for some lasting and sustaining substance. The previous moves have lacked that. I am profoundly grateful for any movement of people towards God. We will know it by its fruit. People can flop around like flounders on a pier and I could not care less - the manifestation is irrelevant to me. What is completely relevant is whether or not there is lasting fruit in their life as a result. I have seen some crazy things that left me laughing and scratching my head as to what it might mean. But the people left with changed lives that stayed changed and grew from there. The manifestation is not important, the lasting fruit is all that matters. If the fruit is there... bring it on. If not, then it will fizzle out like the last several that were supposed to be the "next move of God" in America. I personally hope this one gets grounded and keeps moving.
Jeff McQ
· 1 year ago
I have a mixed, almost two-sided view of the Lakeland revival. While I can accept the idea that God is doing genuine miracles there, I am weary of the churchy "hype" surrounding it and occuring in the meetings. I also share some of the doctrinal concerns.
Because people I respect have attended and feel that God was there (without buying into the hype), and because I don't want to discount people genuinely being touched...I wouldn't want to denounce it. Let's just say I'm wary. At any rate, I'm looking for Jesus in another direction myself.
I posted a few times about this, if you want to check them:
I hear a caution against blanket rejection of manisfestations attributed to God, but rather examining the fruit. I also heard an appeal for holiness that lasts. Yours is a wise word on how to deal with the "mountain top".
In reading accounts of the Great Awakening and subsequent other noted moves of the Holy Spirit, the Welsh revival about one hundred years ago and the Azusa Street Revival come to mind, I am aware of stories of fruit. These stories validate the movement. Is the concurrent emotionalism validated as well?.
I do not question movements per se, but in searching for the lasting fruit, I think some analysis is necessary. What is this emotional fervor all about? In addition to joy over those who find themselves set free from whatever as a result, I see other dynamics that need to named and understood.
First, it never surprises me when any group breaks away from a culturally mandated decorum surrounding a "religious" gathering and in a mountain-high moment of expression before a loving and accepting Father, there results extreme levels of emoting. As recounted in the case of the Great Awakening, the emoting began as wails of repentance. Other phenomena of swooning and uncontrollable shaking followed in later meetings. (This may or may not be a fair accounting, but so I am remembering.) I think individuals who have unknowingly moved into a self-righteousness over their religious practice, are often stunned by the level of love they feel flooding their souls when that lie is undone in the Presence of Jesus. People's behavior in such moments is extreme, expected, and to be accepted.
Such moments of being undone are not restricted to gatherings, an individual can have such a moment in a prayer closet; but the atmosphere of the traditional "revival" and in today's jargon "renewal" is fertile ground indeed. If everyone around is acting as if their finger has just been jammed into a wall socket, it is all the safer to "manifest" and in the loss of the culturally controlled behavior modes find one's soul flooded with life. Is God in this kind of atmosphere? Why would He not be?
Second, our culture is awash in pushing the limits for the "next level" experience. When people have not come to grips with the futility of life as described in Ecclesiastes, the next level experience is often perceived as needed for "real" satisfaction in life. Extreme sports, extreme cruises, extreme consumption, extreme rhetoric in politics and religion are all examples of this "I want more" mentality. Is it not possible that as a function of a spirit of this age, when this desire for more satisfaction meets a charismatic leader with an alluring word, we regard extreme manifestations as evidence of God's Presence and blessing? Is God in this, as well? Level-headness like yours demands that fruit be the measure. Agreed.
However, people always seek what is in their heart and will find the same. Thus within a meeting where "freedom" has busted loose, some walk away changed while others sink back into the same old way of being once the high has worn off. Those who are changed, are so, because faith in what the Bible reveals, the reality of the in-dwelling Spirit of Jesus, has been established in them. The warning is that believers realize God is not in any man's teaching over another or in the significant "move" of the Holy Spirit within the group setting and thus not available to the one being humble and honest in the private prayer vigil. In fact, some teaching and subsequent "moves" of God rely on man rather than the spirit of the living God. Herein is the danger.
Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. I am totally impure, and therefore, it hopeless I will ever see God. Except! that Jesus' righteousness stands in my place and thus opens the vision of my heart. When Christians know this reality, the constant seeking for the next level of God is over. He is new every morning.
ded
· 1 year ago
Sorry, Ben. Sometimes I can't reduce the words any more.
Reed
· 1 year ago
ded,
I certainly know what it means to be an adventure junkie. Both of my kids have me roped into skydiving for their 16th birthdays. Tab is petrified, but I am already making a daily countdown chain for the next 870 days (sigh...). The thing that I have learned about those ecstatic experiences is that they do serve to not only as a high, but a great opportunity to go deeper relationally with God. That means heart, soul, mind and strength. Feelings are stronger than thoughts, though seldom as enduring. Contemplation has become something that is deeply meaningful in both intellectual and emotive spheres for my journey. I do not begrudge anyone an intimate encounter with God. I greatly desire that more folks would have them and not merely let them fade but use them as catalyst for going deeper into relationship instead of merely letting them be a temporary "high". They really are just a taste of the feast that is available for us. Here is to hope and prayer for depth as well as height! (Too bad we can't all tip a pint to it together). Perhaps we can take one in soon.
ded
· 1 year ago
Reed, you probably can't take your kids sky-diving for their 16th birthday. It'll have to be the 18th. Something about one must sign a waiver stating it is understood death may result from the activity. Minors can't sign the document, and parents are not allowed to sign their kids lives away.
My two eldest sons wanted to take me for my 50th and when the third son who was 17 wanted to join us, we were told no. Alas, we put off the event until he was 18, and it has never happened due to scheduling. Sigh. The controlled lives we lead according to schedules!! E-mail me or drop by my blog and we'll schedule a time to tip.
All Comments
I believe in angels, but they are not to be worshiped and some of it seems like he is making them an object of worship.
I listen to one of the meetings and then heard from people who were down there and it upsets me. I am all for people being saved and healed, but not when it is made into a circus or an object of pride.
I think the world today is hungry for the Gospel yet does not realize that what they need is the pure Word. People want emotionalism, experience and a false sense of spirituality that all this hype brings.
That said, I am unimpressed at best by what amounts to hysteria over signs and wonders. I do not know whether such is the case in Lakeland or not. I once observed representatives of the Toronto "blessing" barking like dogs over people "slain in the spirit" and this was stated as an evidence of the Holy Spirit.
I am a huge proponent of people understanding and living by faith based on a sense of the Holy Spirit within. I am very suspect of passion and fervor in the midst of a group experience. The power of suggestion is phenomenally powerful.
It does boil down to knowledge. We have an earthly natural knowledge as humans. Salvation, then regeneration in the Holy Spirit, opens us to spiritual knowledge. What is spiritual knowledge? This question demands an answer or else every unusual manifestation of phenomena will be labeled as of the Holy Spirit. You are wise to raise a warning, Ben.
Because people I respect have attended and feel that God was there (without buying into the hype), and because I don't want to discount people genuinely being touched...I wouldn't want to denounce it. Let's just say I'm wary. At any rate, I'm looking for Jesus in another direction myself.
I posted a few times about this, if you want to check them:
Jaded? Or Just Hungry for More?
Why God Shows Up Where We Don't Think He Ought To
Discussions of Lakeland Revival...
I hear a caution against blanket rejection of manisfestations attributed to God, but rather examining the fruit. I also heard an appeal for holiness that lasts. Yours is a wise word on how to deal with the "mountain top".
In reading accounts of the Great Awakening and subsequent other noted moves of the Holy Spirit, the Welsh revival about one hundred years ago and the Azusa Street Revival come to mind, I am aware of stories of fruit. These stories validate the movement. Is the concurrent emotionalism validated as well?.
I do not question movements per se, but in searching for the lasting fruit, I think some analysis is necessary. What is this emotional fervor all about? In addition to joy over those who find themselves set free from whatever as a result, I see other dynamics that need to named and understood.
First, it never surprises me when any group breaks away from a culturally mandated decorum surrounding a "religious" gathering and in a mountain-high moment of expression before a loving and accepting Father, there results extreme levels of emoting. As recounted in the case of the Great Awakening, the emoting began as wails of repentance. Other phenomena of swooning and uncontrollable shaking followed in later meetings. (This may or may not be a fair accounting, but so I am remembering.) I think individuals who have unknowingly moved into a self-righteousness over their religious practice, are often stunned by the level of love they feel flooding their souls when that lie is undone in the Presence of Jesus. People's behavior in such moments is extreme, expected, and to be accepted.
Such moments of being undone are not restricted to gatherings, an individual can have such a moment in a prayer closet; but the atmosphere of the traditional "revival" and in today's jargon "renewal" is fertile ground indeed. If everyone around is acting as if their finger has just been jammed into a wall socket, it is all the safer to "manifest" and in the loss of the culturally controlled behavior modes find one's soul flooded with life. Is God in this kind of atmosphere? Why would He not be?
Second, our culture is awash in pushing the limits for the "next level" experience. When people have not come to grips with the futility of life as described in Ecclesiastes, the next level experience is often perceived as needed for "real" satisfaction in life. Extreme sports, extreme cruises, extreme consumption, extreme rhetoric in politics and religion are all examples of this "I want more" mentality. Is it not possible that as a function of a spirit of this age, when this desire for more satisfaction meets a charismatic leader with an alluring word, we regard extreme manifestations as evidence of God's Presence and blessing?
Is God in this, as well? Level-headness like yours demands that fruit be the measure. Agreed.
However, people always seek what is in their heart and will find the same. Thus within a meeting where "freedom" has busted loose, some walk away changed while others sink back into the same old way of being once the high has worn off. Those who are changed, are so, because faith in what the Bible reveals, the reality of the in-dwelling Spirit of Jesus, has been established in them. The warning is that believers realize God is not in any man's teaching over another or in the significant "move" of the Holy Spirit within the group setting and thus not available to the one being humble and honest in the private prayer vigil. In fact, some teaching and subsequent "moves" of God rely on man rather than the spirit of the living God. Herein is the danger.
Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. I am totally impure, and therefore, it hopeless I will ever see God. Except! that Jesus' righteousness stands in my place and thus opens the vision of my heart. When Christians know this reality, the constant seeking for the next level of God is over.
He is new every morning.
I certainly know what it means to be an adventure junkie. Both of my kids have me roped into skydiving for their 16th birthdays. Tab is petrified, but I am already making a daily countdown chain for the next 870 days (sigh...). The thing that I have learned about those ecstatic experiences is that they do serve to not only as a high, but a great opportunity to go deeper relationally with God. That means heart, soul, mind and strength. Feelings are stronger than thoughts, though seldom as enduring. Contemplation has become something that is deeply meaningful in both intellectual and emotive spheres for my journey. I do not begrudge anyone an intimate encounter with God. I greatly desire that more folks would have them and not merely let them fade but use them as catalyst for going deeper into relationship instead of merely letting them be a temporary "high". They really are just a taste of the feast that is available for us. Here is to hope and prayer for depth as well as height! (Too bad we can't all tip a pint to it together). Perhaps we can take one in soon.
My two eldest sons wanted to take me for my 50th and when the third son who was 17 wanted to join us, we were told no. Alas, we put off the event until he was 18, and it has never happened due to scheduling. Sigh. The controlled lives we lead according to schedules!! E-mail me or drop by my blog and we'll schedule a time to tip.