15 comments

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  Heather Cotten

  1 year ago

  What a great way to put all of this. We are so surrounded by wealth and the worship of it that we tend to put more value in that then in the value of the gospel. This was a great message on just that!
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  Nathan Rice

  1 year ago

  I disagree with many things that Piper says and stands for, but in this he and I agree intensely.
  
  There is no room for a gospel of deception, where preachers make an appeal for your money in return for blessing ... where they tell you to give your last dollar while they run to the bank to deposit their millionth. That's not sowing a seed ... that is flushing the toilet.
  
  However, I want to be careful to recognize that one can be wealthy and suffer very little persecution in his life and still glorify God. You can never miss a bill, have every one of your friends and family members live a full and healthy life, and be in the center of God's will. Some propagate the notion that unless your life is consumed with failure and misery, you simply either aren't a Christian, or at least aren't a good, sold out Christian.
  
  Christianity is full of financially diverse people, and we need to be careful, while making sure to stand against deceit, not to pass judgment on people who we decide haven't "suffered enough" for Jesus.
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  Rodney M

  1 year ago

  While it is possible to glorify God living a life of wealth and ease with little going wrong, how genuine is the glory given? It's easy to praise God when life is good. Deep and resounding glory to God is made when life is falling apart and yet that person still trusts completely in the love and grace and providence of Jehovah Jireh. Never mind the fact that Jesus promised that in this life we would be persecuted (John 15:20).
  
  However, if you spent a day in my life you'd find that I spend a helluva lot of time in the "pursuit of happiness". I think we all purposefully avoid pain and conflict as much as possible, but should we?
  
  I do not believe we should all be living in poverty. God has called us to live together in unity. Those who have been given much, also have much responsibility to take care of those who don't. If our desire is to be financially wealthy, we should be prepared to use that wealth to care for the sheep, not to pad our own stalls only.
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  Joseph Cotten

  1 year ago

  I think it's harder to glorify God when things are going great than it is to glorify Him when things are hard. When you're poor, your need is in your face all the time. When life is good, I would ALMOST venture to say that it requires a greater step of faith to honor God in and with your wealth. Poverty is no blessing.
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  Priscilla

  1 year ago

  I don't believe glorifying God has anything to do with whether we're financally sound or not. Or whether life is good or not. I choose to glorify God because of who He is, not because of what He may do/or not do for me.
  
  The Piper video is excellent (try showing that on Wed night Ben. That should elicit some response.)
  
  I also agree with a comment made before that "we need to be careful of passing judgment on people who we decide haven’t “suffered enough” for Jesus". Who are we to know what people have "suffered" through - even the wealthiest of us. I believe each of us should be wise with what God has given us. All our "gifts" come from Him and Him alone. I think He'll hold us accountable as to what we did with what He gave us.
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  Greg

  1 year ago

  One of the reasons the "prosperity" gospel has been so popular in low income areas is, I believe, its focus on hope - albeit misplaced hope. I find it curious that many white suburban churches pay a lot of lip service to the poor and saving the world by buying Fair Trade but actually this is just mostly posturing. It's the hip thing to do. Recently I was reading a Calvary Chapel defense of why they don't do more "social gospel" things and they replied that their focus is on the GOSPEL while awaiting the "immanent return of Christ." In my book that puts them squarely in the "so Heavenly minded that they're no earthly good" category (aka, irrelevant). Wasn't the point behind the parable of the Good Samaritan not just being "theologically correct" (the scribe & pharisee) but actually, literally, meaningfully DOING something.
  
  For too long the church has been divided between a liberal "social gospel" wing and a conservative "salvation-only gospel" country club. These walls are blurring finally, thank God, with men like Rick Warren Brian McLaren, and now John Piper. Glory to God!!!
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  ded

  1 year ago

  Hate the prosperity gospel? Yes.
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  Reed

  1 year ago

  I am in NO WAY a fan of the prosperity gospel, but I also take exception to the ditch on the other side of the road. I am don't think God cares too much what you have. I think God cares a great deal about what has you. Money, influence, capital (monetary and relational), are all tools/talents we are stewards over. The issue is loving God regardless of circumstances. Paul gives a relatively comprehensive treatise on it and comes to the conclusion that godliness with contentment is great gain. I concur with the earlier post by Greg(Who looks a lot like Jan) that the hook for the prosperity gospel is false hope. It is simply the same messianic miscue that was present in the first century - where they looked for Jesus to get rid of the Romans and make all the problems go away. Then he went off to a cross and died. What a let down. The were disillusioned - delivered from an illusion. Fortunately they were able to come to a place of genuine faith. Don't we hope that all who face that trial of faith could make it to the other side as well! However, villianizing the opposition is not a particularly productive means of illuminating the issue.
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  ded

  1 year ago

  Reed,
  Very well written comment. Sorry if I sounded as if I was villainizing anybody.
  
  I don't think being strongly opposed to a system or philosophy is a bad thing. Of course, how one treats people regardless of what is believed by them is a greater issue.
  
  Passion gets much good and bad press. It really is not important. Some are more passionate than others, and the issues which fire folks up are diverse. Our decision making needs to go way beyond our passions and be fully submitted to the Spirit of God.
  
  I agree with you completely that poverty adopted as a path of piety is relatively empty. Colossians is clear on that one.
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  Terry Henry

  1 year ago

  I am conflicted. On the one hand I firmly believe that Piper is right on. On the other hand I think that God wanted a people on the earth that he could fully bless—of course based on doing something.
  
  
  Leviticus 26:
  
  3 If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments so as to carry them out,
  
  4 then I shall give you rains in their season, so that the land will yield its produce and the trees of the field will bear their fruit.
  
  5 Indeed, your threshing will last for you until grape gathering, and grape gathering will last until sowing time You will thus eat your food to the full and live securely in your land.
  
  6 I shall also grant peace in the land, so that you may lie down with no one making you tremble I shall also eliminate harmful beasts from the land, and (M)no sword will pass through your land.
  
  7 But you will chase your enemies and they will fall before you by the sword;
  
  8 five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall before you by the sword.
  
  9 So I will turn toward you and make you fruitful and multiply you, and I will confirm My covenant with you.
  
  I doesn't say anything about New Orleans, Africa or the American Indian.
  
  Last season I planted 14 rows of beans because they are really good canned and last all winter that way. One night the deer came and ate all the buds and that was the end of that story. I had prayed over them as I planted and sowed abundantly so that I could reap a harvest and then those hungry deer ended that dream. I will plant again this year and use a few tricks my farmer friends have given me.
  
  Where are the boxes that fit what we think we believe in such a fashion as to almost be invisable?
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  Ben Cotten

  1 year ago

  So I guess God blessed the deer this time?
  
  It sounds silly, but what about when you get a job promotion? That means someone else DIDN'T get that promotion.
  
  I wonder if we define "blessing" too narrowly?
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  tom

  1 year ago

  I think the Gospel is Jesus Christ. Prosperity is not me believing for million dollars and hope it comes true. Prosperity to me is stewardship. My contentment is in Christ. He satisfy me. I am after Christ. In everyday life I want to improve on my job, in my family, and even in my finances. I want to get a better position at my job or a raise. To me that is me being a steward in what I am involved in and growing in areas of my life. That can be a form of prosperity. There are two ext reams. One is If you give a dollar you will get back 7,000 dollars. That is wrong in the sense of putting your faith in money rather than God. On the hand the other extream I have to suffer and be poor and that draws me closer to God. In James it says Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. I do want to be a good steward with my time, my family, my money, my ministry, my job, and in everything I do. I believe the word prosper is cast in a bad light because we see bmws, with million dollars in that word and both parties fight who is right. I just want to love Jesus and point people to Him. As Christians we can prosper in a friendship by becoming better friends. So prosperity is not the gospel but is a good steward I can make good choices, wise investments. I can eat right and excerise. On my job I can get promoted. I could start a business and want it to succeed. I am in ministry and I believe God to meet my needs as I am in ministry. At the same time I never ask anyone for a dime nor to I promote if they give me something they will get something back. I do pray that they will draw closer to God. To me drawing closer to God is what its all about. The word prosper means to succeed in an activity. Is that wrong?
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  ded

  1 year ago

  There is a difference between prosperity, the fruit of diligence working under God's blessing by the direct involvment of the Holy Spirit and the prosperity gospel, which mixes the truth of Jesus with the greed-fruit of the spirit of this age.
  
  Paul considered those who preached the gospel out of an improper attitude to be nothing to worry about; since the gospel was being preached, he was thankful. He must have known something of what they were saying clearly spoke the revelation of Jesus or he would have stated a clear warning.
  
  The prosperity gospel hides the truth and therefore is deadly in a spiritual sense. It is not about man redeemed to communion with God and then reflecting Him. It is about get what you can out of the Cash-register god, whom they claim is named Jesus. This teaching, in my opinion, declares what is good, bad and what is bad as good. Hatred may be the wrong word for describing being totally and honestly against something, but it is an understandable human response when one counts the cost to human life of turning Jesus into a literal golden cow.
  
  We are in a quandary in this day and time over how to extend acceptance and love for anyone regardless of their value system, while standing against the spirit of the anti-christ. It may be that if we learned through the Holy Spirit how to identify the spirit afflicting a human, we would be better able to love the human while exposing the false god. Just another plug for Christians to leave trusting in religion and become those who seek and know the in-dwelling Christ more fully. ;^)
  
  In the mean time, it seems prudent (and, yes, I may be wrong, so help me sort this out) to be willing and able to expose anything used as a descriptor of the Gospel as suspect. Are we "charismatic" Christians,"systematic theology" Christians,"holiness" Christians, "social gospel", "fundamental gospel", "orthodox gospel", ...ad infinitum. The Gospel of Jesus Christ needs no qualifying adjectives or other delineating modifiers. It stands on its own as the Truth.
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  Sam

  1 year ago

  I realize that many will be offended by Piper in this, and I understand their objections.
  
  With that said, my feeling is that Piper is a prophetic voice in this area, that God is using him. Maybe we wouldn't use the same words, or even would rather him not use words like "crap" from the pulpit. However, I think he's performing a prophetic function in the church here.
  
  The reason I say that is because the abuses of the prosperity message has become a real thorn in the side of the church, and is doing almost inestimable harm to the cause of Christ. Of of the leading voices in popular Christianity, there have been so few corrective voices in this area. I, for one, am grateful to John Piper for his spirited response.
  
  Grace.
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  Josh R

  1 year ago

  Worldly prosperity is a curse. God knows that and has something better for us.
  
  And yes, the prosperity gospel is idolatry that puts the gifts above the giver.
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