That God says what He means, and means what He says.
Do you believe in God?
Yes. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.
Why?
Because He allowed me to choose to. ("softening of my heart" / "elected")
What evidence do you have?
I feel His presence, I have had Him impress his voice upon my heart, I have seen a maifestation of Him in person. His Holy Spirt has inspired me to do many things. That is "my" evidence that convinces "me".
I’m having to give an account for my Faith without using theology, scripture or Christianese. ... I’m dissapointed a little that I’m not winning the argument more definitively,
Maybe because the only way of so-called "winning" the argument is to use God's own "evidence" of himself! Uhhh... Maybe that "Bible" thingy?
man's "evidence" is like man's rightousness. "Filthy Rags".
Ben Cotten
· 2 years ago
Apologetics really comes down to arguing one presupposition against another. The difference between Christianity (as you point out) and the others is that God is Himself the presupposition!
We cannot know Him lest He regenerates our hearts and allows us to see Him. Ultimately, it is not us who choose Him but He chooses us. This is the thing that frustrates an atheist or agnostic. It's also the reason why no one has ever been debated into being a Christian. Understanding the issues helps, but in the end there must be a leap of faith.
Paul Ferree
· 2 years ago
Why I believe in God now is different than when I first believed in 2001.
Back then, I was an atheist. I hated anything that had to do with God or religion. The only thing that really happened to me was that I became friends with some christians that were going to Rhema Bible College and they just loved on me despite my beliefs.
I finally let down my guard and just decided to find out for myself if it was true and asked God to show Himself to me. I felt like a complete idiot when praying, but over the course of the month of Febuary 2001, my heart softened to where I decided there was a God. I originally didn't want anything to do with man's religion, I just wanted a real relationship with God Himself without man's opinion. But another month later I was given a bible and I picked it up that night and started on page 1 and read it straight through over the course of 8 months or so. When I started to read the bible from the beginning and saw how everything unfolded, it just made sense to me and I could believe it easily. I was (and still am) a real analytical person and once I saw why things were the way they were and why I would need Jesus I was an easy sell. But originally it was just that I took down my wall and allowed God to do whatever He wanted.
The reasons why I believe now are extensive, but it doesn't reall matter and it's too long to discuss here.
I used to be a real doctrine junky, I used to spend all my time on Carm.org arguing with people about doctrine and beliefs...finally the Lord broke me of that. Here's what it came down to...when we get into debates "the truth" you're trying to convey is only as true as you can explain it or defend it. God gave me this picture to teach me about it. You can have a science professor with all the letters after his name and all the college degrees on the wall debate a 5 year old little girl about whether God is real or not. In the argument, the scientist trying to disproove God goes in great detail with scientific terminology to back up his claims and trumps the girl with his explanations. The girl simply says "I just believe in God", and that's her argument. It doesn't matter how good the opposition argues, if God is real and alive, the girl is right.
Truth does not change one way or another according to our defense.
This is why I'm a preacher and proclaimer...not an explainer. I can explain to someone who is genuinely interested and even have a real discussion, but to someone who's heart is hard, move on down the road. Which is a real pride killer for me...I hate not winning an argument because I love to argue!
My 2 cents.
Paul Ferree
Ben Cotten
· 2 years ago
I think you hit the nail on the head here:
...when we get into debates “the truth” you’re trying to convey is only as true as you can explain it or defend it.
I can remember times when Jehovah's Witness missionaries would come to our door when I was growing up. My Dad would bring me out on the front porch with him to talk with the two guys. They would jump into their speech, and he would interrupt them immediately. Now, my Dad can debate anyone into the corner, but he would always begin asking about their life with Holy Spirit guided questions.
Without fail, soon the situation would turn from an intellectual debate, to an encounter with the presence of God. My Dad was able to successfully get out of the way, and let God do the "debating".
Of course, the opposing question is "shouldn't we have an answer for our faith?" Take my recent discussion linked above. Was that time wasted?
Paul Ferree
· 2 years ago
No not at all...I was just talking about my heart on the matter. I debated for all the wrong reasons. So it's definitely a heart issue instead of a hard fast rule.
No time is wasted when talking about the Kingdom of God. My solid foundation in the Lord came through those times when I would just debate people....but it was just part of the stalk. When it came threshing time, it was gone with the wind!
Paul
Ben Cotten
· 2 years ago
"Gone with the wind" is right! I know the feeling. I think one of the benchmarks of a mature Christian is a willingness to be misunderstood. It's a sign of Godly humility.
Sarah P
· 2 years ago
Most apologetics is way above my head. That was certainly a spirited debate with you and George! As you know, I believe in God the Father, Jesus, his Son as our Savior, who takes away our sin, and the Holy Spirit, our Counselor. The only reason I came to a life-changing belief is because I met Him, and He changed me. For those who know my testimony, you cannot dispute that. You know a tree by its fruit.
For me, I use the words of Nathanael in the Gospel of John, "Come and see." That is the only way I can explain it; for someone to come experience it themselves. If you're changed, great, you will believe. If not, I'll keep praying and loving you until you're ready to really meet Him. This may be somewhat simplistic , but it has proven effective.
My mom and both by previously troubled brothers have come to the Lord, and two friends who I have been praying for are on their way! Also, I think the Lord works this way in my life because I cannot say I did anything, it was Him shining through me.
Oh, Ben, I remember one time when you met my youngest brother, Charlie, you said you felt like he had a prophetic gift. He is now serving the Lord in Clayton at an Assembly of God church. He is married with 2 kids! Also, my mom said my other brother, Joe, who has battled with drugs, was raising his hands and tearing up in worship last week. Praise God!! This is an example of why I believe!! No one who truly meets Jesus cannot be changed!
Ben Cotten
· 2 years ago
No way! That's awesome that so much has happened in your family. God is so faithful!
A friend of mine, Ben Goodman, always says, "It's one thing to talk about a religion. But, it's a whole other deal when you're talking about a Person."
All it takes is one introduction...
Sarah P
· 2 years ago
BTW I saw that interview on Oreilly (I tivo every night) I thought both sides were pretty weak. After reading his book, "Who's Looking Out For You," it's clear O'reilly is moral and religious, but is very hesitant to say that Christianity is THE truth.
Jan
· 2 years ago
I have got to get GREG involved in this discussion with you. He's so good at this. He has been teaching rhetoric and apologetics for years. He's dangerous! :)
Nathan
· 2 years ago
Jan, While you're at it, send Greg over to my site too. We're doing a series on "dangerous questions" and I'd love to have as many informed people involved in the conversation as we can.
All Comments
That God says what He means, and means what He says.
Yes. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.
Because He allowed me to choose to. ("softening of my heart" / "elected")
I feel His presence, I have had Him impress his voice upon my heart, I have seen a maifestation of Him in person. His Holy Spirt has inspired me to do many things. That is "my" evidence that convinces "me".
Maybe because the only way of so-called "winning" the argument is to use God's own "evidence" of himself! Uhhh... Maybe that "Bible" thingy?
man's "evidence" is like man's rightousness. "Filthy Rags".
We cannot know Him lest He regenerates our hearts and allows us to see Him. Ultimately, it is not us who choose Him but He chooses us. This is the thing that frustrates an atheist or agnostic. It's also the reason why no one has ever been debated into being a Christian. Understanding the issues helps, but in the end there must be a leap of faith.
Back then, I was an atheist. I hated anything that had to do with God or religion. The only thing that really happened to me was that I became friends with some christians that were going to Rhema Bible College and they just loved on me despite my beliefs.
I finally let down my guard and just decided to find out for myself if it was true and asked God to show Himself to me. I felt like a complete idiot when praying, but over the course of the month of Febuary 2001, my heart softened to where I decided there was a God. I originally didn't want anything to do with man's religion, I just wanted a real relationship with God Himself without man's opinion. But another month later I was given a bible and I picked it up that night and started on page 1 and read it straight through over the course of 8 months or so. When I started to read the bible from the beginning and saw how everything unfolded, it just made sense to me and I could believe it easily. I was (and still am) a real analytical person and once I saw why things were the way they were and why I would need Jesus I was an easy sell. But originally it was just that I took down my wall and allowed God to do whatever He wanted.
The reasons why I believe now are extensive, but it doesn't reall matter and it's too long to discuss here.
I used to be a real doctrine junky, I used to spend all my time on Carm.org arguing with people about doctrine and beliefs...finally the Lord broke me of that. Here's what it came down to...when we get into debates "the truth" you're trying to convey is only as true as you can explain it or defend it. God gave me this picture to teach me about it. You can have a science professor with all the letters after his name and all the college degrees on the wall debate a 5 year old little girl about whether God is real or not. In the argument, the scientist trying to disproove God goes in great detail with scientific terminology to back up his claims and trumps the girl with his explanations. The girl simply says "I just believe in God", and that's her argument. It doesn't matter how good the opposition argues, if God is real and alive, the girl is right.
Truth does not change one way or another according to our defense.
This is why I'm a preacher and proclaimer...not an explainer. I can explain to someone who is genuinely interested and even have a real discussion, but to someone who's heart is hard, move on down the road. Which is a real pride killer for me...I hate not winning an argument because I love to argue!
My 2 cents.
Paul Ferree
I can remember times when Jehovah's Witness missionaries would come to our door when I was growing up. My Dad would bring me out on the front porch with him to talk with the two guys. They would jump into their speech, and he would interrupt them immediately. Now, my Dad can debate anyone into the corner, but he would always begin asking about their life with Holy Spirit guided questions.
Without fail, soon the situation would turn from an intellectual debate, to an encounter with the presence of God. My Dad was able to successfully get out of the way, and let God do the "debating".
Of course, the opposing question is "shouldn't we have an answer for our faith?" Take my recent discussion linked above. Was that time wasted?
No time is wasted when talking about the Kingdom of God. My solid foundation in the Lord came through those times when I would just debate people....but it was just part of the stalk. When it came threshing time, it was gone with the wind!
Paul
For me, I use the words of Nathanael in the Gospel of John, "Come and see." That is the only way I can explain it; for someone to come experience it themselves. If you're changed, great, you will believe. If not, I'll keep praying and loving you until you're ready to really meet Him. This may be somewhat simplistic , but it has proven effective.
My mom and both by previously troubled brothers have come to the Lord, and two friends who I have been praying for are on their way! Also, I think the Lord works this way in my life because I cannot say I did anything, it was Him shining through me.
Oh, Ben, I remember one time when you met my youngest brother, Charlie, you said you felt like he had a prophetic gift. He is now serving the Lord in Clayton at an Assembly of God church. He is married with 2 kids! Also, my mom said my other brother, Joe, who has battled with drugs, was raising his hands and tearing up in worship last week. Praise God!! This is an example of why I believe!! No one who truly meets Jesus cannot be changed!
A friend of mine, Ben Goodman, always says, "It's one thing to talk about a religion. But, it's a whole other deal when you're talking about a Person."
All it takes is one introduction...
While you're at it, send Greg over to my site too. We're doing a series on "dangerous questions" and I'd love to have as many informed people involved in the conversation as we can.
Nathan